Fiercly independent - resist being controlled! Much rather assist than accept assistance - gives ego illusionary sense of control/superiority. Seeing how surrendering process of control allows/ makes room for accepting assistance from Life. There is no difference between assisting and being assisted! It's all the same thing! All Life's generosity. R/L
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Now THAT is something marvelous to realize, isn’t it? We can extrapolate that to “everything is all Life’s generosity.” Why waste a moment of our precious lives in duality when Life so generously gives us ALL? Gassho
Me in spades here. I am duped into conflating control/justice for compassion. I am bamboozled by these thought/feelings/efforts from ego. I feel it stronger than any other similar pulls. This drive is not compassion and is often even violence. Rarely requested and needed by ego for my storyline/view of life.
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Would it be more accurate to say, “… and needed by ego for ego’s storyline/view of life”? When egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate puts together—unobserved—opinions/conclusions/ assumptions that don’t go together at all, we can find ourselves in places we truly never intended to inhabit. “I am prejudiced against prejudiced people.” “I hate people who are hateful to innocent people.” We can get duped into failing to notice that what ego wants us to believe is compassion is actually hatred and bigotry. That’s a powerful insight. Thank you. Gassho
I thrive when challenging the opposition at work. I hold strong opinions about fairness, see compromise as weakness, and I'm quick to anger at perceived injustice. I rarely focus on relationship building aspects of the job. It seems like a waste of time! Seeing that I'm avoiding vulnerability to rejection. R/L
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When we step back enough to see what we’re doing, through the eyes of clarity rather than ego created assumptions, we’re freed up to make other choices. Our belief in our own view of “fairness” can leave us oblivious to what fairness or injustice might look like for someone else. We used to have a monk who realized he wanted to be able to act out like a two-year-old and be universally adored as he did so. Needless to say, he had zero tolerance for anyone else who acted like a two-year-old! These are extremely useful awarenesses, aren’t they? Gassho
"Concern with justice and protection of others"/ "weak is unworthy." Helpful to see side by side. Underlying the concern for others who are vulnerable can be contempt, rather than compassion, because of ego's self-contempt for the "weakness of" needing. Reaching out is sometimes reinforcing distance. R/L
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Talk about a powerful insight! We would all be well-served to take in that process and apply it to whatever content we’re currently encountering. Very helpful. Thank you. Gassho
I use humor to protect my vulnerability; I can appear capable, strong, knowledgeable and in control while authentically feeling hurt and afraid. I have a hard time asking for and accepting help from others. I am afraid of intimacy so I control how close I allow others to come. R/L
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I suspect you’re paying attention to see where and how egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate is framing your experience? A couple of places to look: “authentically” is often used to describe what a person has been conditioned to think and feel. “Hurt and afraid” are not experiences of “Authenticity;” those are ego states. Conditioning would have you frame “capable, strong, and knowledgeable” as ways you “appear,” implying those traits are phony “masks” covering “how you really are.” I’m betting exactly the opposite is true. As to the rest, I’m going to phrase it as, “ego doesn’t want you to ask for or accept help from others and ego is terrified of intimacy so controls you to keep others at a distance.” Ego wants isolation and control; I doubt you do. Right? Gassho
What just arose: there is impatience with indecisiveness or inaction, but not with others, with myself! Wow, so good to see. Believing the story that not making a decision is not OK, "I" should be different." Dropping story that is not true!! Freedom!! R/L
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So good to see and even better to drop! There is freedom in dropping every ego story, isn’t there? ‘Tis the path to liberation. Good job! Gassho
Tough, absorbing physical pain without complaint (when “I” competes with others to be stronger, endure longer) and yet afraid of emotional hurt and reject others first (hence, being the one to end all relationships). Yep, sums up 8ness I experience. Feels lonely and painful, the opposite of ego’s promises. R/L
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All of ego’s promises are hollow/lies and will end in loneliness and suffering if ego can arrange it! THAT is perhaps the greatest of all the insights we receive through practicing awareness. Realizing this, we can begin the practice of ending our lonely/painful relationship with egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate in conditioned mind, choosing instead the peace and freedom of thisherenow. Gassho
Omg. I think I'm in "8" energy waaaay more often than I thought. I.e. not wanting to be controlled, "sparring" as a way of communicating/making contact, the strong survive. It's good to see I'm not just a "2" but am all. No boundaries. It all passes through. Gassho. R/L
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“No boundaries. It all passes through.” And we, being present, get to be at choice about which and how much of any quality/characteristic is expressed. The choice comes from choosing to allow Life to live us fully rather than supporting egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate to put up barriers and blockades. Very good! Gassho
I notice a voice dismissing people who are labelled weak and ineffectual. People have also said that I’m all or nothing - now I see what they mean. But the judgement is really directed at me and won’t tolerate those parts that are vulnerable and don’t meet conditioning’s standard. R/L Gassho
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Yet we can see it’s not either/or, yes? The voices dismiss others AND you. That insight is one we can apply to every one of ego’s “judgments.” “Judgments” is in quotes because it’s important for us to remember that egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate does not care about any of the issues it yammers on about. It cares about attention, and suffering gets attention. Gassho
Use control as the trigger to see my being identified. Feel it in my gut; tension; I'm right. Just breathe, melt and let it all go. Relax. It's all an illusion. All is okay. R/L
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We can all record that and listen often! “Just breathe, melt and let it all go, relax, it’s all an illusion, all is okay.” Repeat that ten times and egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate doesn’t stand a chance! Gassho
I see type 8 in my tendency to attempt control by being decisive, taking charge, and particularly, by organizing and ordering my personal space. Trying to organize and “manage” everyone (including myself) and all experiences can be exhausting, engender resistance, thwart connection, and keep me from being present. Wow. R/L.
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Love that “Wow.” We can feel the freedom, can’t we? “Wow” is followed by “aaahhhhh”….. yes? Gassho
Why is everyone else so controlling? (sarcastic projection) Secondly, it just dropped in that I have bought into a story about being “too slow” or indecisive (anti-8). The heart tells me I am learning to be comfortable at my own pace. Project joy has been helpful for this.
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Good! I’m projecting the Heart is communicating with you via the Mentor. True? Recording and Listening, the Mentor, and now Project Joy—our cups not only runneth over, they’re emptying! Gassho
Recorded and Listened to the mantra “I do not CONTROL the outcome.” Egocentric karmic condition self/hate argues back in forth to control more, then loosen up. Armor myself by preparing for the worst, leaving others to doubt my true feelings/intentions. Egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate would rather avoid some situations, than be bothered by them. R/L
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Great point. Egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate is VERY invested in certain situations and works hard to avoid others. That in itself is worthy of deep scrutiny, isn’t it? Why this and not that? How am I being manipulated through what attention is drawn to and directed away from? When am I meant to be unconscious and what am I supposed to be “present” for—like beatings! Isn’t practice exciting? Gassho
Fight characteristics were survival; rebelling against my controlling mother. Holding the world at bay so I don’t suffer because interactions with others reveal that there is something wrong with me. Information is received as criticism, to be met with aggression or avoidance. Responding in anger is often an initial reaction. R/L
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An encouragement: It’s illuminating to observe the karmic reactions without falling for the stories egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate offers as “reasons.” We needed to survive childhood; ego stepped in to take advantage of the “decisions” we made in youthful lack of awareness. We don’t need to “justify” conditioning. When we just see “how” we’re being controlled currently, we can bring conscious awareness to what we choose NOW. For instance, I’m conditioned to react in anger. Is that what I choose? If the answer is no, I can take steps to “dismantle” that reaction. See what I mean? Gassho
Characteristics of an 8 are put forth by egocentrickarmicconditioning/self-hate as desirable and why I’m a failure. Conditioning says, fake it because you’ll never be like that. The push to look externally for how to be usually leads to abandoning the part who is being picked on. R/L Gassho
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Absolutely! There’s the historical and current modus operandi of egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate. We learned long ago to abandon ourselves to secure the favor of the “other” that would protect us. We are deeply conditioned to that orientation. We abandoned ourselves to torture then, and we will still unless we get into thisherenow, the only “place” from which the suffering human being can be embraced. Gassho
Wow, I’m surprised. These seem to make me an Eight in addition to a One. Control, fighting injustice, tendency toward impulsiveness and anger, sparring, all-or-nothing--all big karmic aspects of “me.” Grateful to see how, as with much karma, Practice has brought them into awareness and diminished their power. Gassho R/L
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That’s the deal, isn’t it? Oh, there’s that karma “I am heir to,” and that and that and that. With this broader perspective, we can recognize as conditioned “thoughts, words, and deeds” all sorts of ways of being egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate would like us to believe are “just how you are.” Nay, nay. Those are just how egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate is, and all of it can be safely dropped in order to choose thisherenow. WE don’t need to fix or improve, we can simply redirect attention to presence. Not only easier, it’s also happier! Gassho
Eight process shows up with romantic relationships and an unwillingness to give up story about independence: I take care of and fulfill myself without need for others. Also appears with important projects/deadlines: take over to ensure everything goes ˜right’ way. R/L reveals in vulnerability, ego turns to illusion of control. Gassho.
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Funny, isn’t it, that a person told “I can take care of and fulfill myself without a need for others” would even have romantic relationships. Relationship. That sort of implies longer than a few hours! We get to see how at odds the “I don’t need anyone or anything” story is with “I’ve got to control everything so I’ll be okay.” If I’m so okay, why do I need to control anything? Ah, a rich mine to mine, eh? Gassho
Abandoned as a child and again as a young adult, I decided that hurt and love always went together. A romantic and dreamy notion in the movies but not in reality - I shut down, put on the emotional armor and have lived in semi-isolation ever since. Still hurting! Gassho R/L
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Time to drop that story? Anyone reading along with this class has a lot of information that “abusive” and “childhood” are redundant. Growing up is a miserable deal in the best of circumstances. Turning our lives over to egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate to perpetuate that story is truly a waste of a perfectly wonderful human incarnation. The salient part of that sentence is “turning our lives over to egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate…” because that’s what’s happening. Do you know the expression, “It’s never too late to have a happy childhood”? That’s a true statement! That kid/young adult got a rotten deal. Okay. Make it up to him/her. Make from this moment on the very best life experience any human being has ever had!!! How can it be anything but colluding with the devil to keep that person in isolation and suffering for a lifetime when a beautiful alternative is available? Gassho
“My” competency keeps me at a distance from others “less” competent. “I” can help you but at an emotional distance. Better than, less than creates separation, I don’t need you, you need me. Can see vulnerability hiding behind the competence, I don’t need you because I can do it myself. R/L
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I suspect you’re seeing how marvelously that story feeds ego, yes? Ego is the illusion of being separate from Life. As long as ego has a person believing its stories of “I don’t need anyone,” ego is secure in its illusory existence at the center of an imaginary universe. As soon as we get it that ego is an illusion, and that we live in a nonseparate reality, ego is, as they say, toast. Gassho
I feel cared for (trusted) when people will fight with me. I'm kind, forgiving, physically tough. I admire take charge types, but struggle making decisions and worry about others opinions. I'm more emotionally available and vulnerable than typical for 8, but am regularly hurt emotionally (feel unappreciated). R/L
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So those are good places to practice with, aren’t they? You can practice appreciating “you” and others. You can explore beliefs and assumptions (and voices!) around “making mistakes.” You can follow the projections (and conversations in conditioned mind) back to stories about “what other people think.” That’s very helpful for your practice, isn’t it? Gassho
Hard to see in myself, but this is supposedly where my type evolves. Fear of hurt, rejection may be part of why I isolate, have to look at decline in sexual activity as saying “no” before I’m perceived by others as undesirable. Gassho R/L
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You can see the “stories” in all that, can’t you? Looking to conditioned mind for information rather than being present for Life to inform? How about if you begin to be open to seeing these 8-ish qualities in you as you let the voices of egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate take a rest in the backseat! Gassho
Controlled by or indebted to anyone are big issues for me. Major money issues (fairness, usery, manipulation), & sex (as manipulation tool). Solid type 1, but these type 8 money/ manipulation/ control issues are conditioning’s almost assured win every time. Could use some direction in working with it. R/L
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I suspect you’re doing the most important thing we can do in working to free ourselves from the grip of egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate—you’re paying attention. As a specific practice step, you might play with this: When you get triggered (the voices of ego start to go crazy over some perceived “injustice”), stop right there and turn attention to the breath. You feel the adrenalin pump through, everything tighten, and the scramble in the head start, and you just stop. You breathe as you observe the reaction. Then ask yourself, ”How do I know what I’m conditioned to believe is happening is what’s happening?” You keep attention on the breath as you wait for clarity/insight to drop in for you. Gassho
Seeing the 8: the imperious way that ego's "JUSTICE!" bent can express.. Also see the 8 in the way that I push through fear sometimes - though I never saw that before - I thought I was leaning on awareness practice to overcome resistance! Maybe actually it was egocentrickarmicconditioning/self-hate takeover?
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If I were you, I’d want to do a bunch more paying attention before reaching any conclusions such as the one being suggested. Turning to presence, to the clarity of the moment, to move beyond fear is not the same as being taken over by egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate, AND only egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate would want you to think those are the same thing. One way to explore the difference is to notice the “tone” of the two options. Are you being goaded, pushed, made to feel bad, harangued? That would be ego’s way of “getting through fear.” Do you feel like you’re present, supported, encouraged? That would be turning attention away from ego/fear and to Life. Gassho
Noticing I can be 8 with staying quiet, not sharing, holding back any emotional expression, fleeing or avoiding situations, staying “small” and isolating this human from other people. Egocentrickarmicconditioning-selfhate says others hold power of my self-worth - they can reject me or cause me emotional pain. Results: no authentic connection, suffering
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That’s an important set of beliefs to see through, AND it might be helpful to let go the idea that those are 8 reactions. The conversation egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate has you in, from “staying quiet” to “others can cause emotional pain,” is typical ego-maintaining horse pucky! Rather than try to sort out what all that is or where it comes from, perhaps just focus on recognizing the conversation and dropping it as soon as you see it. Get attention back to thisherenow! Oh, and get an R/L practice, please. Gassho
Egocentrickarmicconditioning/self-hate represses 8’s passion saying energy is something to fear & controls emotion externally and internally. Controlling/Avoiding the energy leads to acting in inauthentic ways that then gets judged! Seeing that believing rejection is possible IS being identified with ego. “Know” this but getting it on deeper level. R/L
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EXACTLY! That’s what continuing to practice awareness makes available to us—we “know” and we keep “getting it” on a deeper level. Yes! “Believing that rejection is possible IS being identified with ego.” As soon as we get into that kind of conversation in conditioned mind, we can know we’re identified with ego. The other great insight is that we do what the voices of egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate tell us to do, and then we’re beaten up for doing it! Gassho
See rebel subpersonality defending by fighting back, getting angry at authority figures. See subpersonality manipulated by egocentrickarmicconditioning/self-hate: it projects onto “authorities” and I’m fighting ghosts. See strong “I don’t need anybody!” used to block connection. Connection/need are different, so inkling that original pain of a need unmet still repressed. R/L
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Seeing clearly how egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate manipulates people to do its bidding is a powerful insight. An encouragement: It’s not necessary to figure out all that stuff. You know what egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate is and what it does. That’s enough. That’s plenty to allow you to step right on past ego’s nonsense and get to center. Any “original pain” or “unmet need” will be taken care of when you come to center. You’re in the home stretch! Gassho
Egocentrickarmicconditioning/self-hate protected her from rejection by getting her to reject herself first. Belief is this armors her against rejection so she never will be hurt. Don’t need anybody else anyways. No question blocked in ability to connect to other people or to love, except that that isn’t always true. R/L
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Egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate only ever protects itself. Period. Getting a person to identify with it and do its dirty work? Certainly. People are programmed by the voices to believe rejecting protects them from rejection. What a coup for ego! A person is “protected” from rejection by “others” through living in rejection inside their own head! Never be hurt? NO! ALWAYS hurt. Being hurt moment-by-moment by the hateful voices in the head and willing for it because of a belief that “I’m being protected from hurt.” Can you see it? It is a true YIKES situation. Time to end the reign of terror! Get “her” free from such evil. Gassho
Egocentrickarmicconditioning would love to be an eight. Taking charge, making decisions quickly has been something to aspire to-taking action and inspiring others is how it thinks I should be. It also tells me it’s impossible to get there. (sigh! Yawn!) drop the voices, don’t believe any of it. R/L
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There you go! Besides which, if you didn’t have all those qualities readily available to you, you wouldn’t have any idea what those voices are talking about. HA! Take that, hateful voices! You get to be any way you choose! Gassho
Especially identify with concern for justice, need for control, impulsiveness, and difficulty in being vulnerable. Interesting how some of these characteristics are often overshadowed by the judgement/need for perfection of a One, making actions difficult or miserable. So helpful to see and recognize conditioning's characteristics through the Enneatypes! R/L
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You make a very important point: Egocentric karmic conditioning/self-hate can “switch outfits” faster than we can say Holy Speedos! Here comes an 8 attitude, followed quickly by a 5 reaction, which dovetails into a 2 perspective, and then the 1 comes in to deal with the 4 tendency. We just aren’t that monolithic “I” the voices so want us to believe we are, are we? Yea! Freedom to be. Gassho